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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 10:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/08/2006 10:54:38 rabble, rabble, rabble ....
Suddenly there seems to be a flurry of posts having a pop at either PURE or CDC for their lack of willingness to slug it out or a willingness to bleed to death for secure 0.0 access.
Consider this...
An alliance that does not knuckle-down and do some *serious* logistical build-up (aka alliance wide care-bearing) in the run up to Kali is guilty of criminal neglect. The 'big 4' have already done their bulk-up.
I am no longer in PURE for personal reasons, but PURE and CDC's decision to hook up at this moment in time, can only be considered as smart.
Wether or not PURE/CDC make good in the long run, will be on account of other internal alliance issues, which is very much their own business.
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:13:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower I'm betting Pure members are feeling pretty pathetic right now.
I wouldn't give up the day job just yet if I were you
Seriously though.. that was not the mood in PURE when I left. PURE went to Vale with a singular purpose in mind, that purpose for the time being has been achieved.
You gotta remember PURE's background. The 5 core corporations are ex-FIX. JHENR and Obsidian Asylumn were founding members. DNA, Viper Intel Squad and Imperial Senate were part of FIX's pvp backbone.
They left FIX looking for someplace to recover from nearly a year of uninterrupted fighting, after giving above and beyond the call of duty to FIX. I and JHENR corp helped to found FIX... speaking for JHENR they paid their dues a billion times over.
First stop was Outer Ring and Norad, unfortunately the Goonswarm/BoB/D2 cluster**** kicked off over there so PURE had to suck it up and look elsewhere.
Now CDC had not been owners of Vale for a very long time, so it was not unreasonable to assume that their hold on the area was not yet rock firm. PURE hits the ground running and hostilities ensue....... I have no doubt in my mind that PURE leadership and CDC leadership had the exact same thing going through their minds. "These hostilities are interfering with our long term goals, i.e Kali."
Beagle corp was in the area already? and yeah PURE hooked up with you, you are good fighters and worthy allies..... but... your objectives are comepletely different to those of PURE. You guys are quite happy to re-locate around EVE looking for the next epic fight, kudos to you.
PURE and CDC wanted the same thing, it should therefore come as no surprise that when it came down to it they were able to put their differences aside with the big picture in mind.
I dont think Beagle Corp should view this is as some kind of *backstab*. Your corp is similar to Celest or Outbreak dare I say it. Territorial disputes do not interest you. Ofc you are free to think as you wish...
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:15:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/08/2006 13:16:31
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
I don't view this as a betrayal of Beagle Corp, but rather a betrayal of the corporations and alliances that live in the North and are anti-D2 as a whole; Process of Elimination, Tau Ceti Federation, RISK, Russian Thunder Squad, Sector 7, the list goes on. Your assessment of Beagle Corp is basically correct; we had no interest in the conquest of Vale beyond the removal of a D2 puppet alliance one way or another. Pure was aimed at accomplishing this and their invasion of Vale was supposed to coincide with TCF's recent Tribute offensive.
Instead, TCF were left on their own as Pure mounted only a token offensive on JZV, consisting of a force of just 35-40 ships and no capital support. They probably wouldn't have made it out of Vale alive if it hadn't been for the help of Beagle's Hunter fleet but that's another story. The main point is that they not only jeopardized the assault on the North-East, they then turned around and NAP'ed their former enemies. I understand that life was becoming difficult for Pure internally; I was basically told so by the alliance's leadership, but that doesn't exactly excuse what they've done.
You speak of some anti-D2 task force that ran operations with joint direction with some master plan to reduce D-2 and allies..... well thats all very pretty... but the reality is that in Vale of the Silent you mainly had PURE, Beagle and Russian Thunder Squad fighting CDC.
RTSQ joined RISK and moved further north... and Beagle by your own admission is uninterested in territorial disputes (aka looking for good fights, wherever they may be found).
So that in real terms leaves PURE and CDC wanting to setup in Vale of the Silent. If both entities are looking to make best time between now and Kali, irrespective of all the malarque of northern politics?.. it doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens next.
The extremely loose bunch of NAPS shared by those that were shooting D-2/allies does not a coalition make.
Hence nothing to betray. The only people PURE felt they were letting down a bit was Beagle Corp, but tbh you aren't looking to settle down anyhow... so.... not much you can do there.
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:47:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/08/2006 13:53:03
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
I have no problem with Pure's desire to occupy Vale, as I said; they had our full support in that. What I do have a problem with is how they ultimately accomplished their goal and who they sold out in order to get there, namely their proven allies.
hmm... PURE was fighting CDC for a month or so... there was one coordinated attack in all that time in Tribute. PURE was supposed to attack some position in Vale... to keep CDC busy... PURE did just that.
Answer this question.. who was fighting CDC in Vale of the silent?
It was the three entities mentioned RTSQ, Beagle, PURE.. we know that RTSQ moved further north with RISK.
You say PURE had full support from Beagle to occupy Vale... what does that mean in real terms?
Would you have been prepared to do POS wars, get your dreads out, play the territorial conquest game and keep men on the ground..... hmm I didnt think so, particularly not the POS war bit..
And tbh your statement that it doesn't matter if there was a anti-D2 coalition or not, just goes to show a lack of understanding of what it takes to bring down an entrenched entity like D2/allies. It would take a dedicated, 'dreaded up to the eye-balls', very large, hyper-organised entity to make a dent in D2's well built infrastructure.
I really respect Beagle's gung-ho take on EVE, and your search for the good fight... but don't make the mistake of picturing yourselves as alliance breakers.... not in this day and age.
If you wanna blame somebody, blame CCP for making territorial conquest an exercise in extreme-logistics and for setting the date on the ever closing implementation of Kali.
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:04:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower Was it all just an elaborate way to make a nuisance of yourselves and force cDc to capitulate and NAP? If this is the case then it's still in bad taste as that was not the line that Pure fed to the entities supporting it.
Who were the entities supporting PURE, if you don't mind me asking?
And by supporting I don't mean here are some blue standings, now "Death to D2 and puppets.. yarr".
Who was fighting with us day in day out *in* Vale of the Silent?
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
We've been involved in enough POS wars to know exactly what's involved; there's no misunsderstanding there. Most of the POS war involves the initial attack; the planting of your own POS and the destruction of your enemy's. After that it's a series of fleet battles as each side either engages at system entrances or at POS;
heh... so you mean after you destroy your enemies first few POS they roll over and drop dead? Damn somebody better run over and tell LV and Red alliance how its done....
I think you forgot about timezones dear boy, and the fact that CDC was heavy in US timezone and PURE in Euro timezone.. or was when I was there.... I believe that is more balanced now.
What happens when two entities try to claim the same space having larger numbers in different timezones?
Yes its the dreaded POS spam situation.. where the two entities fail to keep eachothers POS in reinforced mode...
How long would Beagle play the POS spam game?
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
I'll admit that it was a loose sort of support; ganging up while gate camping or raiding, hitting the same enemy but that was the nature of the game. My point was that Pure's setting themselves up as an enemy of cDc and thus D2 was false if their ultimate objective was to NAP cDc and live in Vale. Assuming this really was their objective and this had been made known in the beginning, they wouldn't have had positive standings from us or any other anti-D2 groups.
EVE changes over time very quickly.... due to the very loose nature of the group of entities shooting D2/Allies, is it any wonder that after over a month of very loose cooperation with some groups that PURE decided that it was time to look at other options?
NAP = Non Agression Pact.. and is by its very nature not necessarily permanent. Ex-FIX corps have learnt that the hard way.
Over time either a NAP becomes a closer union or it is dispensed with.
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:02:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/08/2006 17:03:11
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
So basically we saved everyone time and made it clear that NAP'ing cDc would revoke blue standings between us. It's better for everyone that it happens right away rather than like it would have in teh above two scenarios. Other corporations who like you but not cDc will eventually have to deal with the above scenarios one way or the other.
I very much doubt there is any objection whatsoever to your course of action. Infact its the smart thing to do. However, barging onto the forums with accusations of betrayal is quite another.
Even though I'm not in PURE anymore, I'll be damned if stand I by whilst the corp I co-founded (JHENR) is besmirched with such an insuation based on erroneous assumptions.
PURE made very clear its objective from the start i.e setting up shop in Vale of the Silent. I'm sure PURE is very happy to have flown with Beagle and it was fun.. but your paths were divergent from the onset even though it may not have appeared that way at the beginning. Like two ships passing in the night if you will...
And yep i'm bored too..
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.19 13:05:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 19/08/2006 13:05:26
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower, Beagle official The ultimate attacks on Vale and Tribute were supposed to be coordinated in order to work to maximum effect; the tribute assault was jeopardized by Pure's actions. The fact that the entities in the area weren't in a true coalition is irrelevant; we had shared goals and there was a degree of coordination
but....
Originally by: Amerame, TCF official TCF & Pure offensive taking place at the same time were purely coincidental, when we realised it, we briefly discussed the possibility of a common action, but that was quickly dismissed.
I rest my case.
PURE is guilty of betraying nobody, the supposed joint offensive was nothing more than a coincidence and the closest ally PURE had, prior to the alliance with CDC, was Beagle who by their own admission are uninterested in territorial disputes.
This left the path clear for PURE and CDC to sit at the negotiating table with a clear conscience.
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Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.08.21 17:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nyssa Dakalsai Bringing in the meatshields...
Hi max ...
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